The Mind of Ognjen Marić

Boban Dedović Host

00:11 Hello. My name is Boban Dedović and I'm a graduate researcher at the University of Chicago in Chicago, Illinois. This is a pilot episode of my new podcast, titled "What we talk about when we talk about mind."

Boban Dedović Host

00:27 The theme of this podcast is psycholinguistics, or rather, the discipline. Psycholinguistics is a combination of both psychology and linguistics, or language. Psychology, on the other hand, is the study of the mind and human behavior and how people react in given situations. And what I'm really interested in exploring throughout this podcast and throughout my interviews are the ways that people express thinking action. Most of the interviews that are going to take place are going to be with other people with different linguistic backgrounds. That is to say, the interviews are going to be with people that have a native language that's different from English.

Boban Dedović Host

01:11 And in this pilot episode, the first guest is going to be Ognjen Marić, who's a swimmer at the University of Arizona. He is from Croatia, which is in Eastern Europe, and his native language is Croatian. And today he's going to talk about, or rather, he's going to discuss what he talks about when he talks about mind.

Boban Dedović Host

01:35 This is episode number one of the "What we talk about when we talk about mind" podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ognjen Marić. Ognjen is a Division I swimmer and a student at the University of Arizona, and he's from also from Croatia. He speaks English and Serbo-⁠Croatian; and we're here today just to have a discussion on this brand new podcast.

Ognjen Marić Guest

02:06 Hello, I'm Ognjen, and I'm here to discuss what I talk about when I talk about mind.

Boban Dedović Host

02:15 Great. I'm happy you're here and I'm glad you're the first guinea pig, so to speak, to basically try this out with me. The goal of what I'm trying to do for my academic research at the University of Chicago is I'm just trying to collect phrases, terms, and expressions that people just use when they talk about mental action and stuff that you would use formally or informally or otherwise. Now, it seems kind of odd because people don't talk about it, which is why I'm doing the research. It's why the podcast is titled this. So I'm not big on foreplay, so let's just get right into it. When you think about thinking or mental action, so to speak, where does that take place for you? Where do you believe thinking takes place?

Ognjen Marić Guest

03:16 So in Croatia, everything takes place in the brain, and we associate that with the head as well. Yeah, the thought process occurs in the brain, and in some actions, some instances, we even use head instead of brain when we describe thinking and thought process.

Boban Dedović Host

03:46 So, like you would say, could you give an example of an expression? Would you say something like "in my head"–or, what is the word actually in your language? What is the word for mind?

Ognjen Marić Guest

4:03 It's actually there, there are many words. Just a second. The brain can be used as a word "mind," which means mozak. Or it can be misli, which is [to think]. But the word misli can be referred as mind as well.

Boban Dedović Host

04:31 And you said also "head." I think that's glava.

Ognjen Marić Guest

04:35 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

04:37 But does the heart have any significance?

Ognjen Marić Guest

04:44 About thought process? No.

Boban Dedović Host

04:47 Never? Not at all?

Ognjen Marić Guest

04:50 In some instances. But usually we use brain and head.

Boban Dedović Host

04:55 What about the stomach? So, for example, in English we might say "follow your gut," or "what does your gut tell you," or "what does your gut say?" Or sometimes courage. Courage is in what's called your guts. Or sometimes, if somebody doesn't have courage, you say they don't have a spine, or they have the spine of an eclair, which is like a delicious dessert.

Boban Dedović Host

05:27 Or sometimes, actually, when I was your age, wrestling at the University of Maryland, we would say that if a young man lacks courage, we would say "he has no balls." So linguistically, that would be courage was anatomically located in the male genitalia, or testicles, which obviously doesn't work like that.

Boban Dedović Host

05:56 What about those expressions, would those apply?

Ognjen Marić Guest

05:58 Yeah, to start off with the heart. So we have an expression. It says slijedi svoje srce. It means "follow your heart." Or "listen to your heart" would be slušaj svoje srce. Usually we use those words in terms of love when it's decision between something that can impact your career life versus when it conflicts with something that is your career life and the relationship status.

Ognjen Marić Guest

06:30 So, for example, when you're deciding between going, I don't know, overseas, for school, for college, and you have a girlfriend at a time. So when you come for advice to somebody older, they would say slijedi svoje srce or slušaj svoje srce; that would mean "follow your heart" or "listen to your heart" and decide what's the best.

Ognjen Marić Guest

06:53 So that would be the [heart's], most common associations. Also, we have the saying on nema stomak za nešta; and that would mean "he doesn't have any guts."

Boban Dedović Host

07:07 Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just assuming for a different audience, when you say stomak, that's a cognate for English "stomach" or like the intestinal tract. Do you agree with that?

Ognjen Marić Guest

07:27 Yes, I agree. Or we can say želudac. Stomak is like whole abdominal area and želudac is just one part inside that just digests the food.

Boban Dedović Host

07:41 Sure, sure, but for example, thinking does not go on in the heart, and thinking does not go on in the stomach. But what about intuition? Because a lot of people say "follow your gut" or your "gut instinct." Where is intuition anatomically located in your body? If you could point a finger to where intuition is, where would you say it is?

Ognjen Marić Guest

08:11 Chest area, here [pointing to midriff].

Boban Dedović Host

08:13 Really? Chest area. What do you think intuition is? I know you're obviously a student at a very prestigious school where you're studying business, as you told me, but I know you learned English as a second language a bit later. So could you just do your best to just describe to me what your understanding of intuition is? What is that gut instinct?

Ognjen Marić Guest

08:50 So we would describe intuition as something that occurs when you have to make a decision without having facts or some points about something. So you have to just use your own feeling. And we would describe that as little chest tingling or chest pain that you get at the moment.

Boban Dedović Host

09:18 Hold on, hold on a second. This is great. So when you say, like, pain or tingling, what do you mean by tingling or pain? You mean like you feel actual pain?

Ognjen Marić Guest

09:33 Not a pain. It would be a mix of a good pain and nervousness. Anxiety. Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

09:43 I've never heard of good chest pain. Look–nobody knows what these words mean. And I have to be very honest, it's the first podcast I'm doing for my research. So I have the freedom to be very honest with you. I've studied many languages for many years. I just released a paper on mental language in Homer, and all my papers take several years. I collect a lot of data. It just takes me a while. And studying all this–I'm telling you–I'm the last person who knows what mind is, what intuition is, what any of these words mean. So I don't want you to feel kind of bad because I have no idea what these words mean.

Boban Dedović Host

10:31 So this is all new to the entire world to talk about this and to document it. So I said all of that to say this and to make this point, or to ask you rather: what is good chest pain? How would you differentiate that from having a heart attack?

Ognjen Marić Guest

10:50 I would say the good chest pain is when you're about to do something big and good in your life. I would put that in the perspective of racing. So I get like little chest pain.

Boban Dedović Host

11:08 So when you say racing like a swimming race because you're an athlete, you're a professional athlete, correct?

Ognjen Marić Guest

11:14 Yes. So that is a little anxiety that I get in the chest that I decide between I tell that I'm sick or I go for it and see what happens. So that is that intuition that I would say. And after the race, it just goes away and I'm either then proud of myself that I did it, or I'm kind of disappointed that I didn't do well in a race. Or, another example would be the first date with a girl when there's that awkward moment when you're about to kiss a girl. I would say that I have little chest pain before that.

Boban Dedović Host

11:58 [...] I'm going to just invoke Greek a little bit. In Greek you have this word which is translated as mind. Oftentimes it's called ἦτορ etor. And in the Iliad, when in the first book, one line 363 of the Iliad, Achilles' prized woman is taken away from him and he feels this conflict in his ἦτορ etor. And to my way of thinking, this reminds me of that sinking feeling. It's like, I remember years ago a former girlfriend of mine told me [when] we were dating–she just said, "I just can't do this anymore. I can't date anymore." We're breaking up, was the result. And I remember I just had this feeling in my stomach and it was the sinking feeling. And I would call that ἦτορ etor or that feeling.

Boban Dedović Host

13:05 But you're saying you get the feeling in your chest. Is that [...]

Ognjen Marić Guest

13:13 For that kind of experience, I would use the word stomak "stomach" when bad news is about to be laid on me. I would say that you were uncomfortable. And before I get bad news, I also feel uncomfortable in my stomach. But in those instances that I mentioned, it's a chest feeling. Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

13:39 Great. So the excitement, the good stuff, happens here [in the chest], but the uncomfortable, bad stuff happens down there [in the stomach]. And the stuff in your chest and the stuff in your stomach, do you really consider that to be mental action? Like sober 9:00 A.M. to 10:00 A.M. thinking? Do you consider that in the same category as what you just described?

Ognjen Marić Guest

14:07 Yes, definitely. Always sober. Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

14:13 Sure. When I said sober, I meant is it like serious consideration? But okay, that's really actually very similar to what I guess some people understand the Greeks to describe.

Boban Dedović Host

14:33 But now let's talk about adjectives. So adjectives are words that are basically words used to modify nouns or persons, places, or things. Like, for example, you might say somebody has an "iron heart" [as in "iron-hearted"], or you might say they have a "big heart" [as in big-hearted], or a bad person might have a "cold heart" or an "icy heart," I guess would be other ones. What kind of adjectives are used to describe "mind" to your understanding in English or in Serbian–Croatian–[Bosnian]?

Ognjen Marić Guest

15:21 So I actually prepared some words for how do we describe people that are smart. But also for "mind" we would use oštrouman, which means "sharp-minded."

Boban Dedović Host

15:36 Hold up–so sharp?

Ognjen Marić Guest

15:40 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

15:43 Like, [as in] "my pencil is sharp," but the mind is chiseled sharply–pointed like a spear?

Ognjen Marić Guest

16:00 I wouldn't have a mental picture of that when saying it, but I understand what you mean. It's just saying that [somebody's sharp].

Boban Dedović Host

16:21 So it's like a physical property. But what about speed? Is it common for somebody to have, like, a "slow mind" or a "fast mind?" Does that mean anything to you?

Ognjen Marić Guest

16:30 So there's actually one saying that you probably never heard of. It's brzo kopča. It means "fast buckling."

Boban Dedović Host

16:41 Fast what?

Ognjen Marić Guest

16:42 That's "buckling," like "buckle up" for mind.

Boban Dedović Host

16:46 Oh, like in a car?

Ognjen Marić Guest

16:50 Yes. It's brzo kopča or "uses his own head." That's for somebody that is smart and independent.

Boban Dedović Host

17:01 But when you say "head," is that the noun glava, which refers to [...] the anatomical skull?

Ognjen Marić Guest

17:07 It would be misli svojom glavom in the original translation.

Boban Dedović Host

17:10 "He thinks by means of his own head." Correct?

Ognjen Marić Guest

17:14 Yes. Then there are some phrases on how to use your head. One of them, it's uključi glavu, which means "turn on your head."

Boban Dedović Host

17:33 Sorry–just to understand–the expression would be "turn on your head" because to say that your head is "turned on" means that you're using it. You're doing something, you're engaging in mental action, whereas, or conversely, if your head is "off," then you're behaving foolishly. Is that how it's used?

Ognjen Marić Guest

17:57 Yes, you're right. Then there is premisli pervo that is used often when somebody is trying to say before you take any action, just "think first."

Boban Dedović Host

18:17 [Yes], primarily think before acting.

Ognjen Marić Guest

18:20 Then there's a question that people ask when you do something dumb, jel ima nešto u tvoj glavi or jel ima išta u tvoj glavi?

Boban Dedović Host

18:30 [That means] "do you have anything in your head?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

18:31 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

18:33 Hold on. This is good. So if somebody has an "empty head," so if you have like a goblet and it's empty, [like] a cup or container and it's empty, it means that there's nothing there. That's basically a metaphor for "somebody is stupid." Or, there's nothing there that can do the action of thinking. Correct?

Ognjen Marić Guest

19:00 Correct. Yes. Then there's an old saying: ispeci pa reci. It means "bake, then say." [...] In a non-literal translation, it would mean "think first and then speak second."

19:20 [...]

Ognjen Marić Guest

20:22 I [also] have those two that I mentioned when we spoke privately: pali mi je na pamet means "it fell..." I don't even know how to translate this.

Boban Dedović Host

20:36 Okay, so let's talk it through. What's the phrase in Serbian-⁠Croatian-⁠[Bosnian]?

Ognjen Marić Guest

20:42 Pali mi je na pamet: literally, like "it fell from an elevated surface to my head, on my mind."

Boban Dedović Host

20:57 So "it came to mind?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

20:58 No, "it fell to mind."

Boban Dedović Host

21:02 "It fell on to your mind"–and what that means is you just got an idea?

Ognjen Marić Guest

21:07 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

21:08 Okay. Let's just for a second talk about [...] the concept of mind. Let's just imagine there's just a box or a container. Hypothetically, we're talking "in your mind" and you just imagine it's a container, like a metaphor of a space.

Boban Dedović Host

21:30 Are there any expressions where verbs or action takes place inside that container? So, for example, I might say "I've kept you ever-⁠revolving in my mind," which means that I've kept you spinning in my mind, which means that it was just an object in the container space of mind that was in motion. And it constantly caught my attention. Do you ever have verbs, specifically things like moving within the containers? And I know that's a complicated, kind of strange question, so take your time if you need to.

Ognjen Marić Guest

22:18 Yes, it's called vrtiš mi se u glavi. It means literally, "you're spinning inside my head." [...] Vrti means "[to] spin."

Boban Dedović Host

22:31 Yeah, in Latin it's [...]. We're not promoting anything here, but we do have this big Oxford Latin Dictionary that's going to be a part of the podcast. We like to look things up and we're going to try and fact check things. So I think the verb is vertere, which is "to turn" or "to spin." So give me 1 second. Yeah, here we go. So we have page 2042 of the Oxford Latin Dictionary, 1984, P.G.W. Glare, Clarendon Press: vertere "to rotate." "To rotate." So I guess we would call that a cognate or similar [sounding] word. So the phrase is "it spins in mind."

Boban Dedović Host

23:31 And does that mean you're thinking or what does that mean?

Ognjen Marić Guest

23:34 That would be that "you're thinking about something or someone." Yes. To answer your question shortly, yes.

Boban Dedović Host

23:44 Okay. What about expressions regarding sinking? Does it mean anything to say "does it sink in to your head" or "does it sink into your mind?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

23:58 We would have [...]. It's an old saying. My grandma and my grandpa would say it to me. It would literally mean when a sponge just collects water or sinks water [in]. And it would be like [...]. It means literally "did it sink in your head?" Did you understand something?

Boban Dedović Host

24:24 So it means, or, the phrase is "has it sunk in your head?" Or, "has it absorbed into your head?" But what it means is, functionally, "do you understand?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

24:36 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

24:38 Okay, great. Now, let's talk about phrases that we would use for having ideas, plans. What would you say if you just came up with a new idea?

Ognjen Marić Guest

25:06 [...]

Boban Dedović Host

25:20 What does that one mean for people that don't understand Serbian-Croatian-[Bosnian]?

Ognjen Marić Guest

25:26 [... means] "I have an idea." Just shortly.

Boban Dedović Host

25:31 Imam ideju: "I possess," or "I have," and I'm assuming ideju is cognate with English "idea?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

25:40 Yes. There is this one thing that I didn't say, and I really want to say it. You might heard of it actually says radi čuka radi. I don't know if you ever heard of it. [...] čuka is an old saying for a "watch."

Boban Dedović Host

26:27 I've never heard that one. So what does the expression mean in English?

Ognjen Marić Guest

26:33 Literal translation would be "working, watch, working." It's all present, continuous. And it's "watch" in the middle. There's three words.

Boban Dedović Host

26:49 [...] So is there perhaps an auxiliary verb or a version of the verb [as in] "to be like a working watch is work" or "a working watch is what working is?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

27:43 That would represent when you are currently doing something involving thought process. So, for example, that would mean like constantly coming up with solutions at the moment or like when you're solving math problems and you're constantly getting them right and you're constantly reporting them. Usually all teachers would say that to my grandparents, like radi čuka radi. It means like, it's working very well at the moment and it's constantly, repeatedly working.

Boban Dedović Host

28:24 This is great because the idea of a watch is very important because it represents time. And typically people don't think about how strange this is, but a lot of times people think about time in a very spatialized way. So what that means is people think about time in terms of side-by-sideness, like things going through time. People usually say time goes "backward" and "forward," but really–time and space are relative. And that's not really how it works. In fact, actually, if anyone's interested, there's this really great book by Dean Buonomano, and it's called Your Brain is a Time Machine: The Neuroscience and Physics of Time. It's really great. I think he's gone just as crazy as I have thinking about these topics. He doesn't have "chapters" of his book, he has "1:00," "2:00," "3:00," [...] Anyway, time is a very important spatial metaphor that has to do with cognition.  

Boban Dedović Host

29:43 [...] So what is meant by the metaphor of time in that phrase?

Ognjen Marić Guest

29:57 In that phrase it'll be something as constant or linear. Something that wouldn't have beginning and endpoint when using that phrase. It would be like just working and it's working at a moment for longer period of time that happened now and it's stretching but it doesn't have like a past or future. It's like in the moment but stretched out.

Boban Dedović Host

30:32 I'm going to have to think about that for a while. That's great though. I like that.

Ognjen Marić Guest

30:42 You know what I mean? Like when I would put it in my perspective, I would describe it as literally looking at a watch that shows even text seconds and you're like oh, it's working but you're still looking at it and it's still going. Like it's not like just span of 1 second, you're just looking at it and just working.

Boban Dedović Host

31:10 It's just seamless? It's automatic?

Ognjen Marić Guest

31:13 Yes, literally it's timeless. You can be looking at it for hours and literally it would be just spinning and spinning or you can just make a point and be like radi čuka radi. And you're looking at it for, I don't know, 5 seconds. It doesn't have parentheses and then like ten minutes or something. It's just working.

Boban Dedović Host

31:36 Sure. Let's talk about vision for a minute. So in English it's the verb "to see." In Latin it's videre "to see." And I think in Serbian-Croatian-[Bosnian] it's viditi, which is also "to see." And [it implies] the sense, or the sense modality, of vision. And the way we would describe action that happens with the eyes are typically associated with mental action, particularly the features associated with brightness. So, for example, is it an expression in your language to describe somebody as smart as they're "bright" or "illuminating" or "brilliant?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

32:37 Yes, actually.

Boban Dedović Host

32:40 And in English we say when somebody's not very smart, [...] we say they are like a "dimwit"–they're "dim" but not "bright." Does that also apply in Serbian-Croatian-[Bosnian]?

Ognjen Marić Guest

33:19 [To say] you're not very clear, [we would say] [...] for someone who we would assume is dumb, and for someone who we would assume is smart, we would say [...]. The literal translation would be "you're very clear."   

Boban Dedović Host

33:39 So when you say "you're very clear," to be direct and honest about what you said, it's not your "mind" is clear, it's "you" as a person, as an entity, whatever you are, "you are clear." What that means is you are intelligent. And if you're "not clear," you're "not intelligent." Is that what it means?

Ognjen Marić Guest

34:04 Yes, that would mean exactly that.

Boban Dedović Host

34:07 Okay, so I guess the vision modality would be important. And a lot of people think this is common sense, and they say, well, what's the big deal? This is just how things are. But if I call you "bright" and you understand that to be as, you're intelligent, what if I say, wow, I enjoyed speaking with you, you're "very loud." Because that's a similar [statement], comparable modality to the ears.

Boban Dedović Host

34:36 Because, you know, in Sumerian and in Old Babylonian there's like an epithet or a phrase. The word for "ear" is uznum. And if you say somebody has "wide" or "broad" ears, [...], it's an epithet. It means intelligence. I think in Sumerian it's just gestug. Anyway, the point I'm making is you don't associate ears with intelligence. Sometimes I think when you say "I understand somebody," you might say, "I hear what you're saying," or "I hear you." But really what you mean is you are understanding what they're saying. But it is kind of strange how we don't call smart people "loud" or less intelligent people "quiet."

Boban Dedović Host

35:44 But for [the] vision [modality], the brightness expression seems to be a big thing. Are there any oddities [in your language] or would you agree with what I'm saying?

Ognjen Marić Guest

35:54 Yes. Also, I just remembered something for "understanding someone," we would also say [...] or [...]. It means "I start to pick up," or, like, "I'm getting what you're saying," but we use the word buckle for it in a literal translation.

Boban Dedović Host

36:25 So "I'm physically picking up what you're saying?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

36:32 It'll be described as "I'm understanding," "I'm starting to understand," or "I'm slowly understanding." [As in], what you are implying to me or what you are presenting to me.

Boban Dedović Host

36:45 What's the literal translation? Again. Let's talk about the container space [concept of mind]. Let's say ideas are boxes. What would be the literal translation of physical space? [...] Like, are you saying "I'm picking up what you're saying." [...] I didn't hear exactly which verb you used, but would you use the [same verb] as in, like, "I'm picking up this book," and "I'm picking up what you're saying?" Is that is it the same verb?

Ognjen Marić Guest

37:19 Yes, it's the same word, but it's different meaning.

Boban Dedović Host

37:26 Of course. And that's why we're here. That's what the research is about. It is to document these things and to, I guess, to unpack them. So let's go over the metaphoric phrase: "I'm picking up what you're saying." Is it "I'm picking up your words" or "I'm picking up what you're saying?" What's the phrase in Serbian-Croatian-[Bosnian]?

Ognjen Marić Guest

37:54 [...]. It means "I'm starting to buckle."

Boban Dedović Host

38:03 How do you define this word to buckle? Because I would expect the word riječ, which means "word," as in "I'm picking up the words," but you're using this word "buckle," [and] we seem to be revolving or rotating back to it again and again.

Ognjen Marić Guest

38:20 So "to buckle" would be literally like "buckle your seatbelt," as in an action that occurs in a car or a bus. But if we use it for "mind" actions, [as in] when we discuss what we talk about when we talk about "mind," we would use also the word "buckle." I don't know why [that is].

Boban Dedović Host

38:46 Hey–listen, I've been studying this for several years now and I have no idea what it means either. Again, that's why I'm doing this. I'm really happy you're here and I'm glad you feel comfortable kind of being vulnerable with me in this conversation, because the truth is I don't think anybody really knows, which is why we're here. The good news is we're here. We're in the same shoes, so to speak. We're doing the unclean work of sharing this and documenting these things in order that people in the future can look back and kind of benefit or profit from this unclean work.

Boban Dedović Host

39:26 So let's talk about this [verb]: "to buckle." What is it about the "buckling" action? Because you know what a metaphor is, right? So a metaphor is something that passes on [a] quality onto something else. And typically metaphors are described as you have like a target and a source. So if I say "you're strong like an ox," I'm passing the strength or the physical strength of an ox on to you. But really, when you think about it, complex metaphors actually have have four parts, and it's the original person and the target or their quality. And then you have the source, you as a person and your qualities, and then you have the target. And whatever the qualities are of the target, it's actually four parts you're dealing with.

Boban Dedović Host

40:26 So what is it about the buckling action in the car? Just a physical, raw action of buckling? What is it about that action that transfers into mental action? Is it the speed of the buckling? Or is it that you're tightening up? Is it the quality of tightening or becoming secure or holding tight? What is it?

Ognjen Marić Guest

40:52 I would assume it's filling up the gaps in terms of tightening up. Yes, because before knowing a lot or anything about some topics, you have many gaps [with respect to] it. And by buckling up, you would just fill in those gaps, and you would become more knowledgeable in terms of "you're picking up," "you're slowly understanding," "you're getting it." And we would use the wording [...]–it means "I'm starting to understand," "I'm starting to pick up." So literally, you're just filling in the gaps.

Boban Dedović Host

41:31 See, that's great. Now that's my way of thinking, too. Now we're making progress, because in English, you have a couple of phrases that are [similar]. So if I'm ready to do work, if I say, hey, we need to do work, and if I want to tell you, we need to do work, I would say, "it's time to roll up the sleeves." Because the action of rolling up the sleeves basically indicates that you're prepared to do work in whatever activity. So the quality of rolling up the sleeves gets transferred as a metaphor, or by means of metaphor rather, into whatever project or task you're working on.

Boban Dedović Host

42:18 Similarly, there is a phrase in English: "we need to tighten our belts." So let's say it's an expression in English like you're fat and happy and you're living kind of maybe generously or in kind of a liberal way. When I say liberal, it's not politically liberal. We are apolitical here, to be sure. But when I say "liberal," I mean you're free, you're open about it. It's not a concern or consideration. So if I was if I was to tell you, hey, we're spending too much money, it's time for us to tighten our belts, tightening our belts means. We have to start taking things more seriously. So the tightening action against the stomach is then transferred over to the tightening action of the finances of the household.

Boban Dedović Host

43:08 So to clarify with you, if this is what you mean. Do you mean that closing the gaps in your understanding is the quality of closing gaps by means of buckling up? And closing the gap between the buckle and your waist is the same as gets transferred on to the closing the gaps in your knowledge about a topic? Correct?

Ognjen Marić Guest

43:31 Let me just think about it for a second. Yes, actually you presented it very well and described it very well. I'm just trying to think about it of maybe some instances or something that would not follow the rule necessarily, just to point out. But nothing is coming up. I cannot [think] of anything.

Boban Dedović Host

44:00 I don't think there's rules here. I think that's the cool thing about the work. But okay, so let's get back to vision. So in English, a lot of people say for some reason, I don't know why, light bulbs are associated with ideas. Are there any expressions in your language that have to do with ideas or plans that are associated with light bulbs? You see this in cartoons.

Ognjen Marić Guest

44:25 Like a light bulb lightning up above a character's head. It would literally represent him or her just coming up with an idea. It's same in our language. Go ahead. Yeah, it's literally same in our language. Actually, when you say [...] "turn on your head," it would literally be associated with a light bulb.

Boban Dedović Host

44:57 Hold on one second. But when you say [...], the preposition, to my understanding, the preposition u means like "inside,", and it represents [...]

Ognjen Marić Guest

45:09 No. I didn't say u, just [...]. Two words.

Boban Dedović Host

45:14 Okay, so it's not interior, it's not action that's taking place inside the head.

Ognjen Marić Guest

45:21 No, literally, it would be like I don't know. Imagine if here's like a switch, and literally this part is just going to turn on. If you flip a switch, that would mean turn on your head.

Boban Dedović Host

45:35 Okay, so let's break this down because I assure you this will be, at some point time in the future, will be made into a very poorly drawn, two dimensional or three dimensional [image], drawn by me in PowerPoint or some other tool. So what's going on here is the metaphor is the light switch went on, and the light switch is affixed or part of your head or the apparatus, and that's turned on, and there's brightness that indicates that advanced or intelligent mental action has taken place. But it's like a switch that gets turned on, right?

Ognjen Marić Guest

46:19 That's correct.

Boban Dedović Host

46:20 But is there also a phrase [...] where it's like a light switch or like a light bulb in your head? Are there any phrases with interiority where the actual action takes place inside the container of the head or mind or whatever?

Ognjen Marić Guest

46:37 You can say [...] mozak, which would be presented as "turn on something in your head." Or, oh yeah: [...]. It's literally a demand where somebody says "put this inside of your head," like when you're not behaving well. And then somebody lectures you and they're like [...] "put that inside of your head." Like, remember this and follow it.

Boban Dedović Host

47:11 We've talked about a lot of expressions and for this one out of the others, you seem to be very certain of this one. It seems to me that this has maybe been an expression that you've heard many times before in your life.

Ognjen Marić Guest

47:25 It's also followed with the "buckle."

Boban Dedović Host

47:30 Very good. Let's break this one down. It's used as an imperative command: "put this in your head" or "get it in your head." Right. It's used as an imperative.

Ognjen Marić Guest

47:51 "Shove it in your head."

Boban Dedović Host

47:57 Give me one second. [...] I'm pondering the etymology of that word: "to put," "to place," "to shove." I think there's a preposition you put or a word you put before to indicate forceful or immediate action. But yeah. So I think that linguistically can align. Anyway, I'm sorry. [...] Let's move on to some more casual phrases you would have with your friends.

Boban Dedović Host

49:17 So are there any specific, maybe compliments or are there any specific derogatory phrases you might use about little children who just don't have the capacity yet, naturally? Are there any ways to describe it? What if somebody's innocently not intelligent? Like, for example, you can't blame a five year old for not knowing certain things. Or you can't blame [someone] if it's your first time in a country and you don't know the customs. Is there an innocent way to talk about somebody' [who is] acting a bit foolish? Or maybe or if somebody's naturally good at something are there any ways to describe this?

Ognjen Marić Guest

50:07 Trying to think of it. I cannot think of anything that will be specific for Croatian that doesn't already exist in English.

Boban Dedović Host

50:19 Well, even even if it's in English, I think that's still relevant; because, as I've learned, what I think is normal in English, other people have a different understanding. So whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be beneficial.

Ognjen Marić Guest

50:33 So when somebody is good at something naturally, we would say he's a "natural talent" [...]. Literally translated. Then, when somebody doesn't understand something. We wouldn't say that he's dumb if it's like he's five years old, we would just say [...] "He didn't have experience with it."

Boban Dedović Host

51:03 So for somebody to know something, they have to experience it? For a young child, at least, in that case, if they haven't experienced it, they can't know it, and that kind of gets them off the hook?

Ognjen Marić Guest

51:18 Yes, I've presented it that way.

Boban Dedović Host

51:26 Is there anything else I should know about what Ognjen means when he talks about "mind?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

51:39 My brain is fried. Honestly.

Boban Dedović Host

51:43 What do you mean "fried?" I'm just kidding. You don't have to answer. That's not a serious question. Please don't answer that.

Ognjen Marić Guest

51:51 Yeah, there's nothing coming to my mind right now. Honestly. Yeah. At the moment, everything that I could have thought of, I pointed it out, and if I come up with something in the future, I would definitely let you know.

Boban Dedović Host

52:10 I know you said you're out of ideas, so I'm not going to milk ideas out of you. But just to be clear, when you say nothing's "coming to your mind," that means you're out of ideas.

Ognjen Marić Guest

52:20 Yes. New ones are not coming in. They're not coming in.

Boban Dedović Host

52:30 I guess we'll add that to the list.

Ognjen Marić Guest

52:32 [...]. It'll mean "nothing is falling to my head," "to my mind."

Boban Dedović Host

52:39 Nothing is falling?

Ognjen Marić Guest

52:40 Yes.

Boban Dedović Host

52:42 What's the verb again? The infinitive, like "to whatever?"

Ognjen Marić Guest

52:47 [...] like rainfall, padati.

Boban Dedović Host

52:53 Okay. Nothing is falling. Well, I really want to say thank you, Ognjen. I've had a really good time talking about this, and I'm really glad and happy that you were my first guest on the podcast. And all I can do is hope that in future podcasts, that it'll be as profitable of an experience as I had, because I really had a good time talking about this.

Ognjen Marić Guest

53:30 Thank you for having me. I'm glad to share the ideas and I'm glad to help.

Boban Dedović Host

53:34 Great. I guess just as a last thing. So you're in your second year, right, at school?

Ognjen Marić Guest

53:41 Yes, I'm a sophomore now.

Boban Dedović Host

53:42 Great. So do you have any big plans for 2021?

Ognjen Marić Guest

53:47 Actually, I do.

Boban Dedović Host

53:55 So I know you're very talented. I think you said you're ranked in the NCAA. I think your aspiration is to be an Olympic swimmer, is that right?

Ognjen Marić Guest

54:03 Yes. Making the Olympics is one of my plans for this year. Another goal that is coming up within six weeks is Pac Twelve. So I would love to be in top three at Pac Twelve and try to be an All-American this year at NCAAs.

Boban Dedović Host

54:26 Great. Well, I wish you luck, and I'll make sure to share if and when hopefully something comes out of my research. And I wish you luck with swimming and your education, everything else, and I hope we can stay in touch. All right?

Ognjen Marić Guest

54:43 Thanks so much, Boban, and thank you for having me.